'Ground Zero Mosque' draws large scale attention

9/11 terror attacks ~ 3.000 civilian casualties in the US

9 years later, two countries invaded

• civilian casualties: approx 125.000
• "enemy forces" killed: maybe 300.000 + 70.000

(very rough estimate, deliberately not mentioning coalition forces)

• total of maybe up to 500.000 people killed in Afghanistan/ Iraq

let's take Iraq out of it, not only might the war in Iraq not a direct consequence to 9/11. Let's only take Afghanistan: let's estimate 'only' 25.000 civilian casualties... (roughly).. means that for every (truly) innocent US victim about 8 civilian Afghani got killed... not Taliban, not terrorists... As the victims of 9/11, these have been human beings... grand/parents, sisters/ brothers and children, friends...

Is every Muslim now an enemy to the US? Also those who live and work in the US for generations? Are they being lumped together with ObL? With Saddam Hussein? ...

I too would propose a site further away from "ground zero" if possible, but only because of the stir... it shouldn't even be an issue (imho).

Subtract those that weren't American...

can't say I know anything about the veracity of the figures, but I agree with FireTom that they should (if possible) just move the location of the community center. But in the grand scheme of things, what I think doesn't make a difference. And thus I retire from this conversation.

/retires

It doesn't matter to me if they're a religion or not. I'm an athiest, all religion to me is another type of group of people. If I don't like what the guy sitting next to me is doing, but he isn't bothering me alright I tolerate it. If I don't like what the guy next to me is doing but he is bothering me, I ask him to stop.

As for Islam itself, I've only just started doing my research on the topic so I won't stand 100% behind what I'm saying. I'm just gonna put it out there so you can take what you will and when I'm comfortable backing it I'll say so. But to me it would seem that Islam is going to be a very peaceful group of minorities when they're the low minority. Once they get a bit larger they seem to start getting a little more aggressive until we get our extremely high % countries, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. No I haven't seen it with my own eyes but I have a lot of military friends who have told me that over there is far from peaceful. I'll keep digging into it, find out my facts and then pick a spot to stand, but its interesting to point out.

Better left unsaid.

This will be my last post in regards to this topic.

Peace be with you all.

Correlative data is not the same as real qualitative data.

MNS - if that is in relation to the numbers I posted, I would like to say that the point I was trying to make is that killing people who (didn't) kill people to prove that the killing of people is wrong will get us nowhere. That there has to be a line somewhere and that this line has been crossed already many times.

WD - I cannot understand the grief those people experience who lost relatives and friends in the disaster... I never had to face the same. My condolences and compassion to you and your family.

Islam is the youngest of all world religions (I'd guess) and it's scriptures contain two parts: the early part in which Mohamed was living in peace, a merchant with a very small number of followers - and the later part, when Mohamed was facing violent resistance to his proposals and had to defend his belief with the sword. Allegedly all later verses of the Q.ran supersede the older ones... but then again: who benefits from war and violence? Only those who always benefited from it: those who are not fighting with the weapons in their hands and those staying far away from the battlefield, trying to bargain with fate for a lucrative outcome of the war they ignited.

To understand 911 it might help trying to understand what were the motifs (apart from the pure selfish ones). Unfortunately history doesn't come in a nutshell and it is not all isolated events.

All I'm trying to say is that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind... alienating all Muslims for what a few did will not lead to more understanding, better friendships and a community trying to find ways to live in peace.

This community center is creating a lot of resistance for its location - personally I understand that. It shows how much pain there still is resident in people's hearts. Maybe it's too early, maybe it's too close - and maybe this can help to understand other nations grief too. At least I hope.

Sorry, Tom, I was responding to Warior Drakes comment about muslims that are peaceful when outnumbered, yet violent to the point of terrorism when in large congregations.

sorry for the misunderstanding - yet I know of very few people who don't value life enough when outnumbered... the vast majority of which not being alive anymore

Comic anyone?

Not ignoring the rest of the post, but no point in posting it again. As for Mohamed. I have difficulty liking a man or the religion that loves him who married a girl when she was 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. Yeah I'm usually the guy who claims "different times" and "different cultures" to justify things that would be completely immoral and illegal in today's USA but come on, 9?

@MNS And what if I turn out to be right? I said I don't stand 100% behind it "yet". Cause I'm still looking into it. It doesn't mean I don't stand behind it at all, just that it'd be foolish to back something without all the facts.

"...opiate of the people." Karl Marx

That is all.

one will always succeed in searching for reasons to dislike one another.

Warior Drake, the logic presented thus far is based on a non sequiter, if you were indeed correct then it'd be pure luck, not empirical statistics. You can tell me you don't stand 100% behind it all you like, but the truth is, you've got no real evidence to support that claim as it is. Isn't it more likely to be political motivation combined with religious zealotism than it is the actual religion itself?

WD - sorry if it appears as if you're not getting much support with what you think about the community center and surrounding events. I'm certain that more think like you do, only don't step up (here) and make themselves available for a discussion.

Thanks for showing the courage.

We may not agree on this one, but that doesn't make you a bad person or diminish your value as a member of this board.

Again: thanks for taking part and telling your honest opinion.

Alright! Who are you and what have you done with FT?

nothing changed MNS - only realizing that it actually IS necessary to put these thoughts in writing. This partly being the achievement of Lurch, Faith and EoN (last but not least)

*points at Refuge_Crew* it was him! Not me!

Thanks, FireTom. I'm pretty used to being a lone wolf on these topics. If you're enjoying this you'dve loved to see me back during the elections. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind or anything. Just don't feel like keeping it all bottled in either. Though I dunno if I should look a gift horse in the mouth, but its not so much "courage" as I've lost the ability to care about people thinking negatively about me. Though I shall admit, this does sometimes although rarely spill into positives.

First of all, the developer has not bought all of the property needed for this "community center", so it's not even ready to start, nor certain it could ever be started. Second, people have begun investigating where someone with no dough came up with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ needed to do this. Surprise! He is being funded by many different groups. Some of which have terrorist ties, others... not so much. Shockingly, a Liberal owner of Fox news is one of them (a liberal (democrat) owner?!?!? of Fox news??!?!?). So, where are we? USA, baby, land of the free. Freedom of faith (even for the bad ones), freedom of speech (even for the naughty ones). Various are "reaching out" to the Muslims of faith. I for one, hope that (IF) is this is built (as a community center), it will welcome all peoples of faith, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Hinjew. One thing is certain, it has caused one more divide to be spread across USA. Which some feel is the goal of this in the first place. Divided we fall and all that. I for one urge people to ignore all that and focus on peace, love, and happiness. The only one who can destroy us is (ourselves). You may have heard about the Muslim cab driver who was stabbed during a conversation about the mosque. I for one was shocked to discover the Muslim cabbie was against the mosque (in that location, felt it would cause conflict) and the person who stabbed him was not a Muslim but was for the mosque being built there. And on that note, can someone please stop the earth, I'd like the get off. LOL peace out.